With the release of his second album this week, Berlin-based Swedish saxophonist Otis Sandsjö and his close associate, bassist/producer Petter Eldh, deepen their vision of genre-bending, forward-looking 'liquid jazz'. Neil Housego caught up with Otis during his recent stay in Sweden to discuss the joys of locking yourself away in the studio, singing ideas into an iPhone and working with We Jazz Records.  

You're usually based in Berlin, a city associated with great music. How do you connect to that scene and how important is it to you as an artist and musician?

I came to Berlin in 2011. Even though it's now my day to day reality, I would say moving there was a revolutionary thing for me. I came there pretty young, right after I finished studying. I'd been living in Copenhagen for a while. The Copenhagen scene and the Berlin scene have a good connection compared to Sweden, which has always felt further away from that Central European thing. It was great to move there in my early twenties. The city itself was exciting, and the possibility to play every night at small trashy bars was fantastic. I was doing a lot of improvised avant-garde experimental stuff at that time and I got the opportunity to play a lot. I never got money, but you never get money anywhere (laughs). Young people were coming out at night, and I got to do a lot of playing and experimenting. The city's changing now, prices going up and whatever, but it's still a base for so many musicians and all kinds of art. However, they don't really make money in the city, as it's still pretty hard to do so. But because people go elsewhere on tour to make their money, it also creates this kind of openness there. People do whatever they want because there is no real way to make a living out of it. That becomes a kind of freedom. When I was starting out, I could ask people I admired in the scene to work with me, and if they were into the music, that was just fine. There was never any talk about money or anything. It was only about playing, basically. If they thought it was interesting, they would get involved. That's a big thing.

How do you survive financially then? Do you rely on touring to make a living? 

I've been a touring musician since I was 17. That's pretty much all I've ever done. I washed dishes for one and a half months one summer! In these COVID times, this can be quite tricky. I make my money on the road. Now I'm pretty established in Berlin, there are nice festivals and some funded things there. But it's mainly been about playing gigs and session work. That's how I do it. So far, so good but let's see where we end up after this. 

‘Y-OTIS 2’ is the second full-length album under your name. Did you have a concept for this album when you set out making it? 

It's definitely a follow-up and a development of the first ‘Y-OTIS’ album. The first album came out two years ago, and that was my first work in my own name, and it took quite a while to get into that position. You know, in terms of getting ideas and building a sound. The band started a few years earlier as an acoustic jazz band, and that was the beginning of it. I started writing some songs, we started playing, and then I started experimenting more and more with electronic elements and sampling. So that was a slow process. And then the central concept with the whole first album, which we've still been faithful to, is to get in the studio with a bunch of material where some of it is pretty fixed, and a lot of it is very open. And then I just give as much freedom as possible to my musicians because I know they always turn something amazing out. So the studio sessions are a very experimental kind of thing, the way I always dreamt of. You know, like record studios back in the day where you just had the time to go in there and try out shit. I like taking that time. The project is mine and Petter Eldh's (bass player and producer). We knew that we were going to sit down and gather material, and then continue the process after the sessions. We put new things together, overdub and keep on improvising and experimenting with the material in the production phase and the post-production phase. So that's been the whole concept. That's how we did it on the first time, and that's how we wanted to do it again. 

When working like this, do you define your roles or are you both doing rough mixes and bouncing between yourselves? Do you have to be in the studio together? 

I mean, Petter is the one with the production skills. I'm doing demo ideas that I bring up at the beginning, and these are my rough sketches and initial compositions. But this whole project is really about our friendship and the process is a reflection of how we hang out together. It's through music that we got to know each other, and that's the way we hang out. It's about us fleeing into his studio, locking the door and getting into a particular flow. There's not too much consideration. It's ideas, and then we execute them. And then we put the next idea on top and then the next one. So we're sitting together, losing time, doing this and that to the point of getting tired and burned out. Then we see what it sounds like the next day. You know, it's a beautiful process. This time it was quite interesting working in the middle of this dystopian thing happening around us. 

What's the process when you're creating the initial sketches. Does it always start with your sax? 

It's very different for different songs. I most definitely come up with stuff while I'm practising on the saxophone. But we sometimes start with the drum machines and sampling and start twisting stuff around. Also, I do a lot of stupid singing into my iPhone voice memo. If I'm out in the playground with my daughter or something, I sneak away and try and record some rhythmical idea that's just come to me. That's usually where everything starts. 

The thing I love about the album is the way it twists and turns. The compositions feel as though they are constantly moving with surprises waiting around every corner. I think that helps to give it a unique vibe. How important it is for you innovate as you're writing and composing?

For me as a saxophone player and a musician in general, thinking of myself as innovative is a big word. However, I have so much respect for all these amazing musicians that are out there, past and present. There have been so many influential saxophonists through time. So if I try and emulate those musicians who mean so much to me and who I love, that's going to be very difficult. So I think it's more out of a necessity to try and do something that feels a little bit different because that's the only way I feel free. Of course, I'm nothing without all of those influences, but I need to have a way for me to make music and enjoy it. When I was young, I was never really good at practising or doing repetition. I just enjoyed listening to music, and I wanted to try and do something. That's just the way I met music in the first place and started thinking about the structure and the forward motion that I hope my music has. 

The process with Petter and me comes out of that too. We are both from Sweden, ended up in Berlin, and coming from a similar era, the same generation. We have so many references that we share including growing up on hip-hop and loving the same kind of weird comedy. So our being together is all about references. The musicians we work with also have those influences in common and that just makes it very easy. It's a very safe space because we share so much of that. We can go far with being ironic or pushing things. I maybe wouldn't be able to do it with other people in the same way. And since we're both jazz musicians and improvisers, we are trained to perform live and react quickly and take instant decisions. That's what we're trying to put into the studio process. I think sometimes that can get lost while listening to recorded jazz music. If you experience it in a live situation, you can see those decisions being made in the moment. We’re essentially locking ourselves up in the studio and getting into a weird flow together on a social and musical level. And then we're taking those instant decisions and welcoming new things as they happen. We're not stepping back to look at the form. Then we put another layer on top as we improvise again. The music then becomes a multilayered flow of instant decisions on top of each other. This sometimes might not make much sense from a structural point of view, but ultimately it's a reflection of what happened in that session. 

Do you give yourself a time frame for this activity? I expect the editing process is important? 

On a practical level, it can take a long time because sometimes we'll only use a few notes from a take! So it's not about the dogmatic idea of being true to what happened. I would say for me it's more like a way into the process, even though we can get stuck in one bar and obsess over it, on the whole, it works. I guess it's more about the first idea. Then it's just like, 'Man, wouldn't it sound nice with some weird two-step beat. Okay, let's do that' and then we're going to execute that until it becomes something. Instead of some halfway thing where we are questioning whether this is the right direction for the song. If we kind of feel it at the first idea, we then try to commit to it. If it's fun to do it, then that's enough, and we have to make it happen. And then once we've done with that stage, we cut away a lot of shit. But it feels better to have been committed.

Do you ever think about how your sound may develop in the future?   

I'm very much here, and now, I guess. The music might take a new direction, and I'm going to follow it where it wants to go. I'm happy to follow it, but I think we've found something for now. Also, Petter and I are working together in other bands. We have a trio called Speak Low with singer Lucia Cadotsch which is a more chamber jazz thing. But you know, when we develop the material, it has a similar flow, even though it's completely acoustic with no edits whatsoever. It's also the same with Petter's band Koma Saxo, which we've also been working on a lot together.

We're just enjoying working together. If we get the time to sit down when we're not on the road, something will come out on the other side. We just don't know what that's going to be! (laughs).

I've noticed the latest Koma Saxo stuff has included a Jameszoo remix. How did that connection come about?

Jameszoo has been working with Petter for quite a while. I don't know exactly how they got to know each other in the first place, probably from the scene somehow. Petter played on his first album and they also did a lot of other collaborations and remixes for Brainfeeder. Petter has also been playing in the big Jameszoo live band. I've also been recording quite a bit of stuff for his next album. You never know what's going to end up there though. He's like a collector in a way, travelling Europe and collecting sounds and musicians. So that's also developed like a friendship. Petter asked him to make a version of something, and of course, something completely different comes out, which is always the case with him. So that's been beautiful.

I see you also worked with the amazing cellist Lucy Railton on ‘Y-OTIS 2’. How did that work?

For this album, it was really about us writing an arrangement and sending it to her. There wasn't much of a back and forth. We wanted her to be involved with other stuff too, like the next Speak Low album. If we want cello, it's always going to sound amazing if Lucy is doing it!

How did your relationship with We Jazz come about?

That came about through my growing friendship with Matti Nives the director, founder and mastermind of We Jazz. It's a record label, but it started as a festival in Helsinki, and I got to know them first from playing in the festival some years back with another band. I enjoyed it straight away because that festival has a young, fresh aura. There was an instant feeling that Matti has a creative mind and likes to push things in a way I could relate to. So we kept meeting around festivals and throughout the scene. And then when my first album was finished around two years ago, I started looking for labels. At that time We Jazz had only been around for, like, a year or something. Matti's a DJ and vinyl collector at heart so for him it was about the idea of one day releasing some vinyl because of his intense love for the whole thing. So I knew he was up to that, but back then there wasn't very much of a buzz around the label. But it was just a feeling of, 'Hey if you would be up for doing it then that's fantastic'. I knew there would be a lot of love put into it.

The first album was also the first release they did that wasn't Finnish musicians, I think. It was a gut feeling, and he was really into it. And that's developed strongly. It's a very modern label in terms of them knowing where they are. They know where the industry is at the moment and what is possible. And, you know, they're young and positive about it, rather than a lot of older labels continually reflecting on how it used to be and how things are not running that way anymore. It still has this feeling of a small label, which means we can work closely. If we have ideas, we can present them straight to Matti. He's very open-minded, and also open with his thoughts. The label also works with a great vinyl cutter in Finland. So if we want to get something done quickly and he's on it, we can release stuff pretty fast. That's such a free and creative environment to be in.

As a result of this, the second album has been a speedy process. We had a few days recording together, and the first material was pretty rough with a lot of sketches. And then we just sat down for about a month and it went from, you know, really rough sketches to the done album. We put ourselves on a clear deadline and Mattis was on board with the deadline. It's amazing to be able to do that. Not sitting around waiting, and because our process is dynamic, it fits well. We're already working on the next album. 

You don't want to be sitting on material for 2-3 years...

I've done that my whole life and this process is beautiful right now.  

Are you a big listener? Do you search out other people's music?

Being a father for a couple of years now I've kind of cut down a little bit on that! (laughs) 

Were you listening to anything in particular when making the album? 

If I'm thinking about the album, other peoples music is one of the ways Petter and I communicate. We communicate quite a lot through a common playlist that we constantly add to. If we're listening to the same stuff and presenting it to each other, then that will colour our approach. During the making of the album, I've been listening to a lot of Hermeto Pascoal. The earlier stuff with the Brazilian idea of lush and rich colours and being overly beautiful. Listening to the way they recorded it back then where there's still a craziness in it is inspiring. In terms of production style, I've also been listening to R&B stuff like early nineties Janet Jackson albums. The contemporary R&B thing also inspired some of the more 'wet' sounding things on the album. And then at the same time, I listened to a lot of the more Soul sounding Sun Ra stuff. That's been in my ears quite a lot. Also, there's a Swedish Organ player called Merit Hemmingson. She did recordings in the seventies of Swedish folk music in a seventies jazz style. There are a few things on the album influenced by Swedish folk. 

It sounds like you've been super busy with the album, what do you do to relax?

In one way being with my daughter, when she's not freaking out (laughs). Lockdown has been days with me and her in the park. As my girlfriend has to work from home, we needed to stay out of the apartment. I mean, that's been relaxing in one way, because it's about living in her moment. That helps me because I'm not constantly thinking about music and whatever admin things need to be done. So when I get into that, which can be hard, I can kind of land in her world. Receiving the world in this unfiltered way can be relaxing because it cuts off the whole buzz of our modern world. So that's one thing, and for me, I also enjoy cooking. It comes when the day's done and it's time to just, you know, make a meal. It's also a creative task where you can escape. I'm just taking what is there and you know, improvising with it. You know that really helps me. 

We've always done okay with the food but lockdown and shielding have brought a special emphasis for mealtimes with my family too.

Of course, it can be horrible when you have to feed yourself and others as fast as possible. But I think, for me, my mind runs in a pretty high gear usually. So I need to have something that keeps my mind occupied. And if it's something that is kind of relaxed that I can do unconsciously then that gives my mind the chance to slow down. But I can't just really sit down and do nothing though!

Otis Sandsjö's 'Y-OTIS 2' is Out Now on We Jazz Records.