As Stubborn Heart, Luca Santucci and Ben Fitzgerald are set to release their anticipated new album 'Made Of Static' on 4th June. Eight years after their much-lauded 2012 self-titled debut, it's an album that again sidesteps familiar genre boundaries and expands upon their unique mix of heartbreak, Soul, pop, noise and R&B. Neil Housego caught up with the duo to discuss the sophomore jinx, the current state of music overload and the joys of playing a gig in pitch-black darkness.

It's a clear, bright spring afternoon when I meet Santucci and Fitzgerald over Zoom. They reside separately in the now-familiar domestic surround of online life and are affable and relaxed. In the hands of the internet gods, Santucci's connection is choppy, but the conversation between us all flows easily. 

You've both been working together for a long time. And I know it took you a while to get to your debut as Stubborn Heart. Why the eight-year gap between these albums? 

BF: We started working on this album around the beginning of 2014 after we'd stopped touring. We had a plan, and we also had some tracks already that weren't included in the first album that we might have been able to use. But between 2014 and 2019, we began writing a lot of music, trying to find what would work as an album, and I think we thought it would be relatively easy to do. But it felt like there was some pressure to deliver a second album. In our minds, it had to be better than the first one, and that affected us.

LS: The sophomore jinx. I think they call that the sophomore jinx!  

BF: Yeah, we went down a rabbit hole on a few tracks and lost our way a little. We started over and began to overthink our whole approach. 

Do you think the pressure was coming from the inside? That it was essentially coming from you? 

LS: I think the pressure comes from trying to be original. You know everything's been done, and nothing is original anymore. But in your head, you're like, 'I've got to try'. Making something that sounds different to everyone else excites us, but we got a bit lost in that process. We kind of had an album ready to go in 2014, but it sounded too depressing, and it didn't have the spark of the first album. And then there's also the whole thing with music in general nowadays. The amount of music being produced and sold made me lose my enthusiasm. I'm always listening to music, but I was inundated, and it all became a bit too much. I don't know quite how to explain, but I became a bit dead to it. I'm someone who lives for music and have been obsessed with it my whole life. But I feel like the well ran a bit dry these past five years, and I don't know if it's Internet Radio and just the sheer amount of music out there, but I became less enamoured. I think that affected our working relationship too. Ben's always coming up with new things, writing these backing tracks, and I just wasn't responding for a long time. We were going around in circles, mainly because I couldn't get excited anymore. Now it's a return, and I'm excited again. Especially now this album's off our shoulders! I'm excited about doing the next album. You know, I think me and Ben got into a rut, and things became a little bit formulaic. I needed to snap out of it. I was like the walking dead after the first album. 

Do you think that was down to the success? Meeting a lifetime goal of a successful album and then asking yourself, 'Now what?'

LS: I think we were both surprised by the reaction, weren't we Ben?

BF: Yeah, getting signed to a label, getting your music heard on the radio, all of those things were massive. It was one of those bucket list kind of things, and then the success that followed meant that when we approached the second album, we wanted to do something better. I think a lot of the time, we would come up with ideas, and we'd either put them to one side or work them to death! We just kept trying different versions, and eventually, you lose the plot. Before you know it, you've maybe worked on a track for two months without really getting anywhere and then realising that your first attempt was the better version. Also, when you're two years or three years down the line, and you haven't got anything, the pressure gets even more intense. And any music you may have finished that you were happy with then gets questioned because so much time has passed. But now that we've got there, we can start to feel a bit better (laughs).

How do you guys work in terms of collaboration? Are you both in the studio at the same time? Do you always work together, or is it a case of creating backing tracks and Luca coming in to sing in a different studio? 

BF: I think it's a bit of both. Often I'll come up with a beat or something at home, and then we get together, and that can be the start of something. Sometimes Luca will come up with the melody, and that would give me something to work from. 

LS: With the first album, we were together all the time. We worked on the music and the songs together in the studio. Then when we got a bit lost on this album, I think there was a lot of separation. Ben would be at his place, and I'd be at mine, and I think that affected the process. And that's something that the pandemic has made even more difficult. It's been a long time since we've actually worked together in person, over a year. We do prefer being in a room together.

BF: Most of the tracks would start with me building an eight-bar loop and then we would sit in the room and arrange the track together. Luca would get a chorus idea, we'd record that, and then we'd work on the backing track together, and then the verse may come after that. On the second album, maybe half a song would be programmed by myself, and then Luca would come along and record some vocals by himself. But we'd always end up finishing the tracks together. It's always collaborative, and we share the work. It was just a different process for this album that probably ended up like that because we were sick and tired of sitting in the same room together! (laughs) Now we've had a break, though. I'm really looking forward to getting back in the room with Luca. 

Do you have your own studio space? Or do you book studio time? 

BF: I have a small space downstairs in the house with all the gear. Not that I have a lot of gear; to be honest, a lot of it's done in the box these days. 

Do you work mainly in the box? 

BF: Well, pretty much. The first album was all done in the box. There's no external synthesisers or anything like that. Many of the sounds come from stuff I may have found on YouTube. I was nicking little kick drums or snares, building up a library. And then the rest of the sounds were mainly stock. Mainly stock Logic plugins put through distortions, and I also used Sylenth a bit. I also used quite a lot of the Arturia synths on the second album. I'm not really one for going mad with hardware. We have a Dave Smith 'Tetra' that we used on a couple of tracks on this second album. It's a lot of fun with a really organic sound. But the rest is collected sounds where a lot of them are pretty simple yet processed. We were always after this slightly heavier sound that excites, and we tend to use a lot of heavy compression, distortion and overdrive. But you look at the mix page, and you look at the FX racks, there's not tonnes and tonnes of stuff. It's more about curating the sounds carefully at the beginning of the process, so you don't have to do it at the end. We often try and find something at the beginning and stick with it. 

You've definitely found a space between established genres, and the approach to lyrics is also a big part of that. How do you approach this part of the process Luca, is it about reading a lot or reflecting on your personal experiences?

LS: Well, I don't read as much as I used to. That's why my lyrics haven't really progressed this whole time. I used to read a lot as a kid, and I like very simple and economical lyrics. Maybe that's from growing up listening to Northern Soul and The Beatles, where it's all very succinct. They say what they want to say, but they communicate a lot of information and feeling with very few words. I haven't quite got to that point yet, though. 

You're doing yourself a disservice there. The album contains many lines that resonate, and I tend to be one of those listeners where the lyrics definitely come second. There's clear, meaningful communication. 

LS: I'm similar in that I usually only hear one or two lyrics in a song. You know, I'm a big fan of Joni Mitchell and Bob Dylan, but the lyrics are far too dense, and they can stop me from enjoying the music, and I don't like that. I don't want the lyrics getting in the way of the music. So I try and keep it simple. I can hope that one line pops out; that's the aim. 

It's interesting to hear how all these smaller creative decisions support your unique aesthetic.

LS: Do you think the whole heartbreak thing is a bit too much of a cliche now though? 

No, I think there's a melancholy that we all experience in life, which is part of our story. It remains central to our condition and can be grand, epic and devastating. We all go through heartbreak, and not always from a relationship angle. When it is authentically translated into music, it can be compelling. I've used music throughout my whole life as a refuge for hard times. The melancholic music is the stuff that gets you through.

LS: We both enjoy melancholic music, and it's what we're good at; it gives us pleasure. But we found the gigs quite hard work sometimes because if you don't manage to hit that magic spot and take everyone in the room with you, it can be depressing. The first album was made just for us, and we weren't thinking about gigs. We've become more aware of trying to make the gigs more intense rather than feeling like a bunch of album tracks put together, and that may have backfired a bit when making the second album. We shouldn't have even thought about some of those things because they sort themselves out. We just needed to go with what feels right, you know? Thinking about playing it live did affect our choices at the beginning of what to do on the second album, which was probably misleading.  

So were you thinking about the visual elements of a gig too, and things like album art?

LS: No, I'm not one of those people. I just hear the music, and I'm not a big fan of visuals at gigs on the whole. I tell people to just to close their eyes. Yeah, we did have some projections, but it wasn't anything we put much effort into because I find it distracting. I can understand that it works for Kraftwerk or Daft Punk, but I don't want to see visuals for most gigs. I want to look into the musician's eyes or close my eyes. I don't want something else taking me away from my personal experience and what I'm feeling. I don't want a visual artist stamping his or her thing on it. I go to every art exhibition that opens, but it doesn't work for me when it's connected to music. I can only hear the music. I'm not very good at the whole visual side. I'm a fan of it, but I'm not very good at it. 

BF: I agree; when we were gigging the first album, we were given visuals. I think they came mainly from stuff that the office had done for our YouTube promos. But one of the best gigs we did was in a club in Germany, where the visuals didn't work for some reason. It was completely pitch black with a couple of strobe lights going off. It was just perfect for our kind of music. Late at night, dark with a great sound system. You could really feel it. 

LS: A smoke machine and strobe lights! Always the best. 

BF: With album art, too, I'm pretty useless. I mean, I appreciate it a lot, and I have educated myself over time. But when it comes to helping choose stuff, I'm not entirely confident. The first album was quite a bit easier because Trevor Jackson found this great collection of artwork, and we got given a whole batch of photos to choose from. But I never really connect visuals with my process of writing music. I never have, but maybe I should try. I did a soundtrack for a film years ago, and you're looking at a picture and creating the music to support that. It may be an interesting way to try writing a song. Just grab a piece of artwork and sit there and programme something?

I think your music fits into that category of stuff that sounds best at 1 am, dark and raining outside? Like Burial or someone like that. You don't want anything pulling you out of that experience.

LS: Absolutely. 

For me, that's the best music. 

LS: Yeah, that's what we want in the club. I don't know if there are health and safety issues, but you want the lights out. And if the music doesn't work in the darkness, then you might as well give up!

It's that vibe. You know, the rest of the world is sleeping, and you're alone.

BF: We did a gig once outside in the afternoon, a kind of family type festival. I can tell you Stubborn Heart doesn't work at 2 in the afternoon with kids running around in front of the stage.  

LS: Yeah, they've probably heard one song on Gilles Peterson's show, and they think 'Let's book them'. It doesn't work. 

Are you looking forward to getting back out there to perform? 

LS: Yeah, I think the best tracks from this album and the best tracks from the last album should be pretty, mind-blowing for 45 minutes or however long people want you to play these days. I'm really quite excited about that. 

BF: I mean, I wasn't at first. I always go through this problem of translating it into a live situation, and I think this album's a bit more complicated to achieve that. But now that I've had time to think about it, I'm excited too. 

Are you mainly triggering loops and working with backing tracks.

BF: Yeah, there'd be a backing track running, and I choose which parts to play. So on some tracks, I would be playing the bass lines, and on some of the tracks, I might be doing drums. I navigate the best parts to play. There can be difficulty to it, but I want to be challenged without it getting too complex. There were a couple of tracks that I was kind of relieved to get through on the last tour, but I relish that challenge too. I'll have to be very prepared for this album, but it's an enjoyable learning curve. I think the key is keeping it simple enough and enjoying yourself, and that's what'll come across to the audience. If you're just standing there, you know, just pressing buttons, it can be a bit dull. But different approaches work for different acts. When we were first gigging around 2012, 2013 there was a bit of a stigma around performing with computers and things like that. 

LS: It's got to have a live element. You want people to have an individual experience.

BF: Luca has got to sing every single track, and without him, the tracks aren't there. After being involved in loads of live bands in my twenties, I kind of felt like it looked like I was just checking my emails on stage. That's kind of how it felt to me for a bit. But I got used to it, and there's not a lot you can do unless you've got three or four other people along with you.

LS: I like the Sleaford Mods approach, pushing a button and having a beer (laughs). 

I suppose you look at the live element as a real way to make a connection with your audience. So important.

LS: Yeah, I want people to go home moved. For me, that's the whole point. That's why we kind of bring a lot of noise to the music. Because even though I try and bring a lot of emotion in the vocals, I do sing softly to sound different from everyone else. There's a lot of bombastic singing out there, you know, so I encourage more bombast in the music itself. You want people to have their heads blown off, you know? When I like something, I listen to it at full volume, and when you go to a gig, you're listening at full volume and then some. I want people's head blown off with some subtlety and intimacy in there as well. To create a touching experience. It's an exciting balancing act.

You're walking a tight rope and baring your soul. But like you said earlier, that must be really difficult when some of the audience are looking at their phones or even videoing you - not living in the moment. 

LS: Yeah, we had a lot of that; our gigs were definitely 50/50. Half of them were fantastic, and half of them were miserable. Let's see if we can push that ratio! It depends on the crowd or the mood we're in, and when everything clicks, it's magic. And that's what you want. That's why I'm amazed at people like Thom Yorke, PJ Harvey and Bjork, who do go out and deliver every night. But sometimes you can't because of the room, the people and the feelings aren't there. So I'm amazed at these people because I find it very hard to be emotional in front of people. They've been doing it night in night out for years, though. I suppose we should be doing more gigs, building up those skills? 

‘Made of Static’ by Stubborn Heart is OUT NOW

The second single from the album ‘Proves to Be’ is Out Now